An interesting article from the NY Times on the MSA and the struggles it faces today.
February 21, 2008...4:17 pm
are you in or out?
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February 21, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Interesting, indeed! When I set off in pursuit of a PhD, at the age of 42, I thought, “cool, I can join the MSA…” Although I was warmly received at the MSA meetings and functions I happened to attend, I must admit, I felt slightly out-of-place. Maybe it was my age and the fact that I tended to hang out with the oldsters from the masjid, maybe it was just me ;o)>>>
Anyway, in regards to the article, I am generally of the opinion that inclusion, as the first response, is best. As one who has lived beyond the pale of Islam, I know what it means to have someone strong enough in their own faith to not judge me, nor worry about the risk of “corruption” for the sake of helping a brother find his way. That said, I also believe it is essential for us to critically consider and negotiate these issues to the best of our ability, lest we slide down the slippery slope of ignorance and too-worldly pursuits.
February 21, 2008 at 6:18 pm
I agree with your sentiments. Especially in the precarious situation the ummah is in, it is important to include as much as possible because we all have been given special talents that we can use to help our community. When a brother or sister has knowledge on a subject or expertise that is useful to a community but others do not find them up to their “standards” in the religious sense, we are doing a disservice. I wonder how much of the Saudi influence they mention in this article is still around. I know that this issue is very sensitive on a certain campuses, luckily I think our charlottesville/UVA community does rather well on the MSA side of things.
February 23, 2008 at 10:01 am
Asalaamualikum,
I definitely agree with the both of you, but at the same time I think we need to be careful in compromising our deen. I think true inclusion doesn’t compromise the deen as it is intrinsic to it, but if we begin engaging in activities which are clearly prohibited by the Quran and Sunnah for the sake of “inclusion” then something is wrong (the example in the article of going to play slots in order to ‘bring people together’ being the most obvious). One of the past MSA presidents in the article said that she couldnt condone certain activities because she was afraid of what Allah would ask her on Yawm al-Akhira. I think that’s the right attitude, a taqwa-oriented one. How those intentions translate to actions, I’m not sure of. Men and women mixing at MSA meetings or other activities might be unavoidable at a western-secular institution such as the university, but I don’t think that means we should completely stop those activites altogether. I think there are some issues of fiqh that need to be considered and the best source for that would be someone versed in the science, especially one in the fiqh of muslim minorities, but we shouldn’t lose sight of the spirit of the deen, wallhu aalam.
February 23, 2008 at 5:28 pm
definitely agree and awesome points. now the question is what is the spirit of the religion? following Allah commands however they interpreted, understanding the maqasid, etc etc? how does one determine what the spirit is? you’re right about the not compromising, since there are clearly explicit things in the Quran and Sunnah that would be hard to interpret any other way but what about the rest that is up to interpretation? hate to use the analogy, but isnt a person’s islam only as good as how they interpret it? im hoping Jasen can jump in with some of the hermeneutics side of the discussion.
February 24, 2008 at 5:39 pm
I loved this article, it made me laugh. Muslims need lighten up. For some reason young Muslims (like us) have gone crazy with stricter interpretations of our religion. I my opinion, this all has to do with power. Young Muslims feel awkwardly placed in the broader American society, because many come from immigrant backgrounds and Islam has yet to be seen as natal to this country. Young Muslims react to this acquiring power and a sense of self through Islam. If they feel awkward and powerless in the broader society, then Islam becomes an avenue to have power over others. Young Muslims get tied up with these stricter interpretations because they [the interpretations] provide clear and easy answers to many concerns they are having at this point in their lives. They can also exhort power on their fellow brothers and sisters by naming them (or at least their actions) as “wrong.” Thus, a simple “I’m right because I have Islam on my side and you are wrong because you don’t have Islam on your side” dichotomy is set into motion. People feel empowered with they have such simple and convenient answers on their side, because they can oppress others who defy this stricter Islamic standards.
We should be cautious about using these stricter interpretations when dealing with thew Muslim community. They are certainly fine for our own personal relationship with God, but applying it to societal relationships is risky. You run the risk of running people away from Islam and I have seen this myself at UVa. MSAs should be about fostering a family, as ALL Muslims are brothers and sisters to us. We need to stop worrying ourselves about calling people out for their “wrong” actions and instead show our brothers and sisters the love, compassion and understanding that are the hallmarks of God.
February 24, 2008 at 10:23 pm
yeah, You make a really good point and i can relate to the whole power issue because it is so easy to identify. I usually see it (have done it myself) in what I call the “flip-flop” behavior. In other words people who conveniently pick and choose what to follow in Islam. I see it in households for example where wives/husbands will mention something from Islam as to gain clout for an action or a complaint while at the same time ignoring other aspects of the religion. While I know this flip-flop behavior is a problem for a lot of people (myself included) if it happens on a personal basis like Jasen mentioned, then that is between you and God. But like Jasen said, when Islam is used for power purposes in the societal context and human interactions, then things become much more dubious. Now my only question is, the Quran states that we should enjoin good and forbid evil. How do you folks think it should be handled? If anything, if you see someone doing “wrong” you should be more compassionate and try and help that person recognize their wrong behavior rather than ostracizes and alienate.
February 25, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Asalaamualikum,
I think you have a really good point at end about how do we forbid the wrong and enforce the good. I think we should look at that other article of yours where it showed the example of Hasan and Husayn (R.A.) trying to show the old man how to make proper wudu. I don’t think this type of wisdom is innate for the vast majority of us like it was for them, but rather is a skill that is learned through time and experience. I was listening to something the other day by Shaykh al-Yaquobi and it was echoed by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf about how people with good intentions misrepresent Islam in an effort to spread the message. Not everyone can be a ‘caller’ in every sense of the word; some times just getting up and doing your prayer when others don’t remember is enough of a call to the Truth.
Also for Jasen’s comment: although I definitely agree with you in the fact that people can use Islam as a tool for power, it is not necessarily always the case. I do believe that there are sincere people who think that they are following the Quran and Sunnah by adhering to some of the ’stricter’ interpretations. I don’t think we can complete discount these fellow Muslims. I think you’re absolutely right about being strict with yourself in your relationship with your Lord and not applying the same standards to others. However, Islam is not just a relationship between an individual and God, it is a ‘complete way of life’ thus entailing all aspects of our actions, including the social sphere. Those people who feel that they should obey the commandants of their Lord will certainly want to apply it to all aspects of their lives, including the social, which will necessarily affect others. We can’t dismiss their sincere efforts as merely ploys for gaining power over their fellow Muslims. And Allah knows best.
February 25, 2008 at 9:10 pm
I think the best way we can “enjoin good and forbid evil” is to set an example for our brothers and sisters. I’m often surprised to see how the “conservative” (and sometimes judgmental) brothers and sisters often themselves do not reflect their own beliefs and regularly miss daily prayers or partake in idle destructive talk. These people (and I consider myself one of them) should not be criticizing or calling out others, when they themselves have deficiencies. The only person whose actions we can control are our own. Thus, if we want instill certain actions and behaviors in our brothers and sisters then we need to be perfecting and showing those things in ourselves. Others will see them what we are doing learn that way. No one likes to be called out and labeled, that will just make them rebel from Muslims and Islam.
February 27, 2008 at 1:19 am
Assalamualaikum,
Wow, masha’Allah nice discussion. I just had a couple of quick points I wanted to make about the general discussion. First, Jasen and Humayun’s issues about power and interpretations brought some thoughts to mind. I strongly believe that much of how a person feels about the level of ’strictness’ that young people have has to do with their personal background, societal influences (by that I mean different societies within the US or even abroad) and Islamic upbringing. For example, Jasen mentioned that we (young people) are becoming stricter whereas I feel the exact opposite. Again, much of this most likely originates from our very different backgrounds growing up and who we were surrounded with. Both have valid arguments, and it isn’t as simple as black and white so I don’t think we should make blanket statements about how the ‘youth’ are behaving. From my personal experience while teaching Muslim high school students, it was almost impossible for me to say that the youth were heading in one direction versus another because of the vast diversity in thought and belief.
In regards to the power issue, I think I’m on the same page as Toki. I definitely agree that some people use knowledge, which takes the form of several forms of interpretation because there are two extremes, as a means of power. We’ve all seen it in many instances used in negative ways. However, we shouldn’t just dismiss the ideals of teaching others and the concept of the righteous leader with the label of a power hungry oppressor. In terms of the ease associated with this, I think that it is actually more difficult to live your day to day life while struggling to follow the moral and ethical code that you believe Islam blessed us with. It is easy to be lax and conform to societal norms. Also, we should be cognizant that there are in many instances a severe inferiority complex that Muslims have towards non-Muslims, and even Muslims towards other Muslims which allow this empowerment that occurs.
In terms of criticizing or calling out others, no offense Jasen, but I don’t see how labeling some as ‘conservative’ and bringing out deficiencies such as missing prayers and idle talk, which are issues among every group that we could label, is not in and of itself an act of criticizing and calling out others. I totally agree with you in that we should perfect ourselves first, but at the same time realize that we all have deficiencies no matter what ideological stance one takes.
Lastly, I strongly feel that we should try to increase ourselves and personal ranks (that only Allah is aware of and we don’t judge others with) through knowledge and give naseeha/advice to those in the same manner that Hasan and Husein (ra) gave. In the Quran it is mentioned that Allah increases the ranks of people through knowledge and that the person of knowledge is not equal to the one without it. You can call that interpretation, understanding, or whatever else but if done properly shouldn’t divide Muslims, but rather unite them further. Jasen did a great job in alluding to the bottom line that no matter what a person has to say it doesn’t matter if it isn’t delivered with humbleness, respect, and a nonjudgmental attitude.
February 27, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Let me make some clarifications. First, I’m not saying that all young Muslims are going towards a stricter interpretation. I’m just saying that some young Muslims are, and those are the ones I am talking about. Personally, I don’t think that it has to do very much with someone’s cultural background. In the US we are exposed to many different religions and forms of Islam. These experiences I think shape our own religious outlook more than our cultural upbringing. Look at me for example, I came from a very non-religious background and the shear fact that I pray 5 times a day and go to the mosque regularly make me look like zealot when compared to the rest of my family. And please don’t try to discount me (or any one else) because we are converts or “western,” I take offense to that.
Second I want to be clear about what I mean by power and “naming.” Power and naming are very tied together. Foucault says that real power is not the power to oppress people, real power is the ability to label or name people. I have a problem when people think that they have the power or the “knowledge” (which itself is very cultural defined) through Islam to fell superior to others. Because they feel powerful they feel that they came name others. This naming is not literal naming, in that the person usually isn’t directly calling someone wrong, this naming is a mechanism for one person to fell superior over another.
Personally I think adopting stricter social interpretations is only setting oneself up for hypocrisy (and I don’t mean being a munafik). That is what I was trying to elude to when I talked about conservative Muslims, not praying or partaking in idle talk. We need to have a concept of our reality we when decide what is important. We to clearly think if we can seriously apply these interpretations into our lives. If we are not thinking seriously and we do try to take on these interpretations, then we will be only setting ourselves up for failure.
While I certainly think that you can use stricter interpretations to empower yourself, when you are defining your relationship with God, I believe that these stricter interpretations run into some difficulty when they are applied socially.
March 8, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Assalamualaikum,
Sorry for the late reply, but I still wanted to make a few comments I feel are very important (I should probably check this more often nonetheless). Firstly, in regards to the “trying to discount anyone because they are converts or ‘western’” I honestly don’t know why that accusation was made based on what was said earlier. Any educated and sensible Muslim would know that doesn’t make much sense now or throughout Muslim history. For example, Omar ibn Al-Khattab (ra) said about himself “I am the best among you, because, I was the worst amongst you doing sins in jahiliya, and now all those have been converted to good deeds”. He (ra) also said, “Islam will fail because of those who did not taste the disbelief (kufr) so that they cannot appreciate the bounty of Islam”. The entire first generation of Sahaba were converts and they were the best generation to have ever lived. Even contemporary scholars, such as Muhammad Asad, whose translation of the Quran and his autobiography “Road to Mecca” are amongst the most read and respected in the world. He was a ‘western’ Austrian Jewish convert in the 20th century. Also, the most notable activists and people of knowledge in the US are ‘western’ converts, such as Imam Siraj Wahaj, Imam Sohaib Webb, Ingrid Mattson, Sherman Jackson, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, and the list goes on. In addition, I think all of us would consider ourselves ‘western’. Again, I am slightly confused and curious as to the reason behind mentioning that comment and think that all of us would find that kind of mentality offensive, not just ‘western’ converts.
In terms of the concept of reality, I personally feel it requires a humble mind to accept that we don’t always know what is best for ourselves and that our Creator knows our human nature and reality better than we do. I’m completely supportive of trying to understand the reality to prioritize what is important, but at the same time realizing there is a huge difference between reality and what is ideal. For example, the reality is that we live in a society that will completely assault you if you speak out against homosexuality. Therefore, in my opinion I don’t think we should have a knee jerk reaction and make frivolous suggestions that homosexuality is permissible in Islam based upon that reality. Again, that’s just one example and I’m not trying to bring up a discussion about that subject.
Also, my worry is that it is so subjective to decide what the ‘reality’ is. Who is to decide what is good for us? One person’s reality is completely different from another. For example, when labeling ‘conservative Muslims’ maybe they consider themselves as ‘moderate’ and others see them as ‘liberal’. I see a lot of room to manipulate people (ex: the ‘reality’ is that there were WMDs in Iraq when obviously that wasn’t the reality). Therefore I see it as a positive thing to have some general principles at a high level that can help govern our social lives and apply to most people. Obviously there will be specific cases that require more thought, but there are some major commonalities that most people share on a regular basis.
I understand and agree that we need to think seriously about social norms within our society in order to apply Islamic interpretations. For example I don’t necessarily think that a Saudi/Egyptian/Pakistani/etc. scholar would always be capable of providing valid verdicts to the US Muslims because he/she might not understand what the society is like here. Although I am not discrediting their opinions, and many times they are correct. It would ideal to have more homegrown US scholars because it might be easier to understand the peoples’ needs.
I also think there is a big difference between setting very high standards and not meeting them versus being a hypocrite. All of us are aware that everyone has faults and makes mistakes. For example, if a sister sets her ‘conservative interpretation’ to model her social affairs based on the example of the wives of the Prophet (ra) and doesn’t live up to that standard, is she assumed to be a hypocrite? Obviously not. If she chooses not to conform or assimilate to the reality that she lives in yet doesn’t meet her goals she isn’t a hypocrite, she is human.
Over 90% of Islam is in regards to the interactions between people, or our manners and character. If you simply remove that, you basically eliminate the quintessential essence of the religion. Proper character towards people is a form of worship so I don’t agree that we can so easily separate the personal relationship with God and the relationships of social interactions. I almost see many parallels between that and a complete secularist viewpoint.
These are just my opinions. Others are free to disagree and have their own, and I respect that. I just don’t see any benefit in trying to “win” debates, and therefore not trying to understand other points of view. I think an educated Muslim should be able to entertain a belief without actually accepting it.
March 9, 2008 at 8:50 am
All in all, everyone here is right because we viewed this issue from different eyes. All of us have different opinion about life, thus, ofcourse, in this issue too. It’s interesting that if we read again our comments, many of us (maybe all of us) used “I think”.